Exclusive | 'Bayern Munich have won Bundesliga many times, because they have deep pockets like Man City': Mark Seagraves

Is the English Premier League the most popular club football league in India? The simple answer to that question is - yes. According to available data, viewership of the Premier League on the host broadcaster in India went up as much as 63% in the 2023-24 season. 7.1 Crore people tuned in to watch Premier League matches last season. Compared to the 2021-22 season - that was a 125% jump. India’s urban population is consuming more and more of Premier League football.

But, the EPL is not the only European club football league that has made a big impact on the Indian market. La Liga is fairly popular too and now there has been a slight uptick seen in Bundesliga (the top flight of German club football) popularity as well. A number of initiatives are being undertaken to boost the popularity of German club football in India. In April this year, the Bundesliga Dream India project was launched. Under this initiative, under-13 and under-15 players from India are selected to travel to Germany for training camps with clubs there. They roped in Indian actor, Kartik Aaryan as their brand ambassador. In other words, the Bundesliga is following in the footsteps of Premier League and La Liga clubs. India is an emerging football consumption market and they don’t want to be left behind.

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But, having said that, the Bundesliga is also a league that puts German fans first, and according to former Manchester City player Mark Seagraves, who follows and tracks the Bundesliga very, very closely, they are happy with where they are. So what more can they do to market themselves better, especially in the Indian market?

If you have watched Bundesliga football, you would have noticed that the league does offer quality football, which is also why we see German clubs competing at the higher echelons of the Champions League and the Europa League. The league of course also attracts big-name players. And with Bayern Munich’s incredible domination being disrupted last season by Bayer Leverkusen, and other teams improving rapidly, chances are we could be in for a few really exciting seasons ahead.

In this interview, former Manchester City and Bolton Wanderers player, Mark Seagraves, talks about the culture of the Bundesliga which puts the fans first, the teams he has been most impressed with of late, Harry Kane’s move to Bayern Munich, if he thinks the German league has become a one-team league, why he is excited to watch the Bundesliga more than the Premier League, Xabi Alonso’s impact on Leverkusen and more.

Excerpts…

Do you think it’s a fair assessment to say that the Bundesliga has become a one-team league — considering Bayern Munich won 11 consecutive titles before their run was halted by Bayer Leverkusen last season?

Seagraves: Who was in the Champions League final this year? It was Borussia Dortmund vs Real Madrid (Real Madrid won 2-0). Bayer Leverkusen were in the Europa League final. The Bundesliga for me is every bit as exciting as the Premier League. What they do have is, they have stadiums which are full to capacity, every single game, no matter if it’s Heidenheim vs Mainz or it’s Frankfurt vs Freiburg. The stadiums are full. The atmosphere that is generated is amazing. The football they are playing is top quality. If you look at the players that they have - Leipzig just sold Dani Olmo to Barcelona for a record fee (deal worth an initial €55 million or $60m, with an additional €7m due in potential add-ons, according to ESPN). Borussia Dortmund have sold Erling Haaland, they have sold (Jadon) Sancho. I love watching the Bundesliga because it excites me a lot, more than the Premier League right now. Yes, Bayern Munich have won it (many times), because they have deep pockets like Manchester City, but you have Leverkusen now in there (champions last season with 90 points), you had Stuttgart (73 points) who were second last season. Dortmund are evolving, Leipzig. So, Bayern Munich don’t just have Leverkusen to worry about, they have got Leipzig, Dortmund and a Stuttgart as well. And that’s not to say that the other teams in the league won’t put together a good team.

Borussia Monchengladbach, Union Berlin - had a bad season last year, but they seem to have gotten it back together again, so I love watching the Bundesliga, I think it’s really exciting. They have got some really top-quality players, playing in there in all teams. Monchengladbach, Leipzig, Dortmund, Frankfurt, Bayern Munich. It’s very fan-based (also) the Bundesliga, where a lot of the tickets at a lot of the clubs are affordable for the local guys to go and watch, hence every stadium is full. Bundesliga for me is watchable, it’s relatable and I am watching good quality players. Harry Kane is playing in the Bundesliga (for Bayern Munich), Serhou Guirassy (26 goals for Stuttgart), who was just behind Kane (36 goals for Bayern Munich) in the top scorers list (last season - 2023-24). There are loads of really, really good players.

Early days yet of course in the season, but what do you make of Heidenheim so far? They were on top of the Bundesliga points table for some time. They made their Bundesliga debut last season and finished eighth. What have they done right overall, in terms of changes and execution?

Seagraves: They (FC Heidenheim) have carried on from last year. They were a promoted team last year. They came in and finished 8th, which was a brilliant position for them, in the first season. They are very solid defensively. They don’t concede many goals to the big boys and so they get their results against the opponents who are in and around them and below them. This is great for the Bundesliga - with what we saw last year - with (Bayer) Leverkusen winning (first Bundesliga title for them) and now Heidenheim. They are going to be looking at getting into the Europa League slots and just progressing from where they were last season. To be 8th in your first season of the Bundesliga and to start off the way they have (this season - 2 wins in 4 games as of Sep 25, 2024) - absolutely fantastic. A lot of that comes down to the manager. Their manager (Frank Schmidt) is very pragmatic, in terms of how he approaches the game. He is experienced, he is 50 years of age, he has the experience and the players. You can just try and get better each year. They are never going to be a Bayern Munich, they are never going to be a (Borussia) Dortmund, but they will be able to cement their place - a little like Atalanta in Serie A - a very small club, but they have cemented themselves as a Europa League winner and a Champions League team, so that is what Heidenheim will be looking to do.

Why do you think the Bundesliga doesn’t or hasn’t yet managed to push leagues like the Premier League and La Liga in terms of popularity and fan support, at least in countries like India so far? What’s missing?

Seagraves: If you look at the Premier League as a brand - it’s global, isn’t it? If you are in India and you are talking about the Bundesliga, maybe Bayern Munich will be mentioned, (Borussia) Dortmund probably - and that’s about it, isn’t it? Bundesliga is still not as good a product as the Premier League, because all the best players and the money is in the Premier League. But for a purist like me, who understands the way it is - I know a lot of guys in India who understand the Bundesliga and know the teams. It was great last year, with Leverkusen (winning the Bundesliga for the first time). The host broadcasters (in India) did a good job of promoting the Bundesliga, they had all the games, every weekend, Saturday and Sunday. But it’s like everything else. Who do all the supporters know in India? They know Lionel Messi, they know Cristiano Ronaldo and then it will trickle down to the likes of Erling Haaland etc, because they get all the publicity. I think the Bundesliga is very parochial.

They have fans on the Board (fans in many of the Bundesliga clubs have voting rights. It’s called the 50+1 rule). So, it’s very fan-centric. But if I were to say to you ‘give me 5 or 10 of the biggest teams in Europe right now’ - where would Bayern Munich be? You will have Bayern Munich in there, you will maybe have Dortmund in there. Ultimately, everyone wants the Premier League because that’s where all the best players are and the major finances are and they get shown on all the major TV shows. If you look at the Champions League, the Europa League etc - the Bundesliga teams are there. They are in the finals or the semi-finals, so there’s something to be said about the Bundesliga.

Agreed. But do you also think that the Bundesliga could do more in terms of promoting itself in countries like India? I ask you this because we have seen an exponential rise in popularity of football teams from leagues like the Premier Leaue and La Liga in India and other emerging markets over the last few decades. Do you think the Bundesliga needs a bigger push, just to market themselves better?

Seagraves: I don’t know what else they can do, except for maybe bringing teams over (to countries and markets like India) and collaborating with the ISL teams or I-League teams or something like that. They can’t do much more than get a host broadcaster to show their games every weekend on TV. I know it (Bundesliga matches over the weekends) clashes with the Premier League, which isn’t ideal. They had a big issue with their TV rights (in February this year, the German Football League (DFL) scrapped plans to sell an 8% stake in its TV and marketing rights to a private equity firm as part of a 20-year, potential 1 billion Euro deal, after fan protests). They (the Bundesliga) want to keep the league fan-centric, they want to keep it affordable. I am sure they (German Football League) would want it (the Bundesliga) to be global, (but) I think they are quite comfortable as they are. If you are a football guy in India, in Malaysia, in Singapore - you know who Bayern Munich are, you know who (Borussia) Dortmund are. People in England wouldn’t know Union Berlin or Holstein Kiel or FC St. Pauli - they wouldn’t know these clubs, and that’s true, but there are a lot of quality players in the Bundesliga. Whether they are players who have come from the Premier League - youngsters like Jude Bellingham (English midfielder who played 92 games for Borussia Dortmund from 2020-2023), like (Jaden) Sancho (English winger who played 104 games for Borussia Dortmund from 2017 to 2021 and then 14 games in 2024, on loan from Manchester United) - they are able to go develop and play and learn the craft (in the Bundesliga) and they go on to bigger and better things and I think that’s the USP of the Bundesliga - players and managers are able to develop.

Look at (Julian) Nagelsmann - manager of the German national team at 37. Whereas in the Premier League that doesn’t happen. But the Premier League is sexy - it’s got all the big teams, all the big names, all the money. They have got shows on the Premier League (in emerging markets as well) during the week - and maybe that is where the Bundesliga should do more. But I think they are happy with where they are right now.

Talking about being happy where one is - how good or strategically sound a move was it for Harry Kane to move to Bayern Munich? There was a time when a lot of people wouldn’t have really typically pictured him playing in Germany, but he has, after all, done pretty well there, actually. He was the top scorer of the 2023-24 season, with 36 goals…

Seagraves Harry Kane will always score goals, no matter where he is. It was a strange one (Kane’s move to Bayern Munich), because he thought a bigger and better club in England may have come in and signed him. But knowing what the Spurs Chairman (Daniel Levy) is like - he is very strict and he wouldn’t have allowed him (Kane) to go to any other Premier League team, so I think Bayern Munich is a good fit (for Kane). It’s unfortunate and uncanny, you know, that wherever he (Kane) goes, they don’t win anything. The first season he went to Bayern Munich, it was supposed to be the 12th time (consecutively) that they would have won the Bundesliga, and they didn’t. They got knocked out of the Cups (Bayern Munich didn’t win any domestic silverware in the 2023-24 season). I am not saying that was because of Harry Kane, because he was the leading goal-scorer (36 goals for Bayern Munich in the 2023-24 season). But I think there is a lot of hype around Harry Kane and he wouldn’t be in my top 20 of all-time great strikers in world football - back in the day to where I am now. But his records are phenomenal when it comes to goal-scoring. But to be world class you have to have a little bit more than that. You have got to be able to have a little bit more in your locker to be able to be called world-class.

World-class, for me - Lionel Messi, Pele, Cristiano Ronaldo, (Diego) Maradona. He (Kane) is not in the same sphere as any of them, in my opinion. He (Kane) looks like a player who is not that happy there (at Bayern Munich) and with everything that happened in the summer as well, with the Euros (England lost the Euro 2024 final in July to Spain 1-2. Kane was the England captain), it hasn’t been a great time. He (Kane) would love to come back to the Premier League. But again, it’s a big club - Bayern Munich, a massive club and he (Kane) has probably gone to, apart from Real Madrid and Barcelona, one of the big boys in European football.

If you analyse the last say 10 seasons of the Bundesliga, which team would you say has been the most impressive — not going by the titles won, and so leaving Bayern Munich out, but overall, in terms of improvement and performance?

Seagraves: There are two teams. One is (VfB) Stuttgart - season before last they had to play the play-off, to stay in the Bundesliga League 1 (beat Hamburg in relegation play-off 6-1 on aggregate, to stay in the Bundesliga for the 2023-24 season) and they managed to win that game and then they finished as runners-up last season (in 2023-24, behind Bayer Leverkusen). But the team for me (most improved), if you are looking across the board is Bayer Leverkusen. When Xabi Alonso took over (in 2022), they were languishing in 16th place. From there he (Alonso) managed to get them to the Europa League places and then the following season, they were unbeaten the whole season (Leverkusen became the first team ever to complete a full Bundesliga season without a single loss. They also set a new European record of 51 games with a loss across all competitions). And they are playing Bayern Munich, they are playing Leipzig, they are playing (Borussia) Dortmund. To be unbeaten through the season, even after winning the league - with 8 games to go - they still managed to be professional. The only blot in their landscape last season was the loss to Atalanta in the Europa League (Atalanta beat Bayer Leverkusen 3-0 in the final in Dublin, in May 2024) and that would have been a wake-up call for Xabi Alonso, but for me, they were so good to watch.

They scored goals and played so well right the way through. I don’t know how many times they were facing defeat and they scored in the dying minutes - time and time again. Xabi Alonso signed players who many would have thought were over the hill, past their sell-by-date - Granit Xhaka (Leverkusen midfielder and Switzerland captain) being one of them. He was an absolute revelation last season. He (Alonso) brought in (Victor Okoh) Boniface (Nigerian striker). He was electric and fantastic, till he picked up an injury in the African Nations League and that pegged him back a little bit, Florian Wirtz (German attacking midfielder), you have got (Robert) Andrich (German central midfielder) in the midfield, (Nathan Adewale Temitayo) Tella (Nigerian attacking midfielder and right-winger), (Jeremie Agyekum) Frimpong (Dutch right wing-back) - they have so many good attacking options, they are just so good to watch. The football they were playing was amazing, the goals they were scoring were amazing. If you look at the Bundesliga, there are about five to six teams that could actually win the league and that’s not a pie in the sky and I don’t think we will see Bayern Munich’s monopoly anytime (soon) going into the future.

Well overall, the popularity of the Bundesliga is growing, albeit slowly, even in a country like India. For a quick recap - Over the years what are the things that the Bundesliga has given world football and the fans that the other big European leagues haven’t managed to, according to you?

Seagraves: I think it was the introduction of putting supporters on the boards of the football clubs (the 50+1 rule) and having a say in how your football club works and develops and goes forward. A lot of teams, in a lot of clubs across Europe are owned (wholly) by the owners and they will do exactly as they want, whereas about 95% of the teams in the Bundesliga have fans on their board of directors. You don’t have a club where a guy comes in and wants to just completely throw all sorts of money at it. It’s regulated and it’s an exciting league. They must be doing something right. As a player, I would rather go to a league that is exciting and can pay me the same money, as anywhere else but is exciting - week in and week out. Whereas, if you go to a team like say Real Madrid, you have only got about 2-3-4 games per season, where it really matters, and that is not to decry La Liga - it’s a good league. And even in England, if you go down the league - maybe seven teams have an outside chance of winning, two have a very good chance of winning, the rest are just playing, trying to stay in the league. They used to call them - ‘Bayer Neverkusen’ - never winning and then (them winning) rocked the whole of the Bundesliga last year. It certainly rocked Bayern Munich. I just feel the way they (Bundesliga teams) incorporate fans - if any TV rights decision has to be made, then the fans are in on that and they have their say. They (Bundesliga teams) also pay good monies to players. I mean, Harry Kane is not going to go to Bayern Munich for less money than he was getting at Tottenham, or for what he could have got at Manchester United. The clubs are run with the clubs’ best interests at heart, not necessarily the owners’ best interests. And of course, having the fans on board is a very good thing.