Exclusive | Congress has blundered in getting Sonia Gandhi to lead the party: Subramanian Swamy

Public image and personal reality can be starkly different. More so if the person is Subramanian Swamy. On the public platform, he appears to be aggressive and overbearing. But meet him personally at his residence, and he is soft, polite and generous to a fault. “Please feel free and be at ease. Ask any question you want. I won’t get upset.” He repeats these words much to settle my nerves, as I find myself in a cosy little room surrounded by books.

So, here is the man who is feared by the high and the mighty. As one politician cautioned this author, “Swamy ki na dosti achi hai, na hi dushmani (Neither Swamy’s friendship nor his enmity is good).” When I ask Swamy to explain this reputation, he replies with a smile: “Maybe it’s because I stand by the truth.” But is there any truth in the rumours that Swamy keeps a “file” on every important person in the country? “I don’t need them (files) now. I have computers; I keep them on computers now,” he says.

The following is an interview with Subramanian Swamy — on his assessment of the recent poll results in Gujarat, Himachal Pradesh and Delhi; his relationship with the Gandhis, especially Sonia Gandhi; his evaluation of Indian economy; why he thinks PV Narasimha Rao is India’s best Prime Minister ever; and why Mahatma Gandhi’s assassination needs to be investigated again.

Excerpts:

Q. We just have the results of the Assembly elections in Gujarat and Himachal Pradesh, and the municipal poll results in Delhi. How do you see them?

A. Well, the BJP has lost two out of three results. All the states — if we regard the Municipal Corporation of Delhi (MCD) as the third state — were ruled by the BJP. So, celebrating Gujarat without giving any explanation on the losses in Delhi and Himachal Pradesh would be a mistake for the BJP. After all, the national elections in 2024 would also be fought in Delhi and Himachal Pradesh. There are many states where the BJP has never been in power. In the Gujarat jubilation, we must not forget our weaknesses in other states. Winning Gujarat with such a huge mandate is big, but so is losing Delhi municipal polls after 15 years.

Q. Yes, of course, the BJP should be measured in its celebrations, but the way the Congress has lost Gujarat shows all’s not well in the grand old party. Where has the Congress erred?

A. The Congress has blundered in getting Sonia Gandhi to lead the party. Let the party get a Hindustani to lead it, and everything would change. Today everything is decided by the family. Most of the old, credible leaders have either left the party or are marginalised. Even the famous lawyer (Kapil Sibal) has left, taking a Rajya Sabha seat from the Samajwadi Party. There’s a sense of complacency and entitlement that come so easily for those hailing from the dynasty. These dynasts are fun-loving, easy-going people. Today when Indian politics is a 24x7 affair, these dynasts are always looking for travelling abroad on vacations.

Q. Since we are talking about the Gandhis, I find a great sense of reverence, if not fear, for them, especially Sonia Gandhi. You are one of the few people who love taking on her. Please explain…

A. I knew Sonia Gandhi’s husband very well. He was a very good friend of mine. And with him I formed the Chandrasekhar government in 1990-91. I go after Sonia Gandhi simply because I find her corrupt. Then, of course, there’s a personal reason: In 1998, she had sought my help in bringing down the Vajpayee government with J Jayalalithaa’s support, but when it was done, she betrayed. After we brought down the Vajpayee government, she said she would not form a coalition government.

But more importantly, after the UPA first came to power in 2004, she could not become PM because I blocked her candidature on the issue of her Italian origins; President APJ Abdul Kalam accepted my opinion and conveyed the same to Sonia Gandhi. But she got in place a puppet Prime Minister in Manmohan Singh and actually concentrated all powers into her hands. At that time, she forwarded a lot of things that were not in India’s interests. She also became quite vindictive against a lot of people who she thought were against her. That included me and several RSS men. It was at that time that I got hold of the National Herald papers, wherein I saw her links with corruption.

Q. You claim that you have a very strong case in the National Herald case. What makes you so confident?

A. The Associated Journals Limited, which published the National Herald, was sold to the Young Indian Limited, formed by Sonia and Rahu Gandhi, for Rs 90 crore. Ironically, this money Young Indian never had; the latter’s total paid-up capital was Rs 5 crore. How did they get the remaining Rs 85 crore? It was done through the Hawala funding. Second, the Associated Journals Limited closed down saying it couldn’t run anymore due to lack of money. But then it had properties worth Rs 5,000 crore. Why didn’t it auction a part of it? So, there is no doubt in my mind that the National Herald company was formed to acquire the Associated Journals Limited, which in turn meant the control of all these lovely buildings they had. Interestingly, Sonia and Rahul Gandhi owned 76 percent of Young Indian Limited and the remaining 24 percent was owned by Congress leaders Motilal Vora and Oscar Fernandes — both of whom are dead now.

Q. You are a one-man army who keeps fighting against corruption. How do you do so? Don’t you ever feel fearful about taking on these powerful people?

A. Oh, I fought for so many years against J Jayalalithaa and managed to send her to jail. Even against her friend, Shashikala, it was a long-drawn battle before she landed in the prison. The National Herald Case is still on, but I am sure it will reach its logical conclusion. I have no fear as I have nothing to hide. Let them come after me and dig my past, they will find nothing.

Q. At a time when the world is going through an economic crisis, India is being seen as a bright spot. How do you see that?

A. Look, I don’t think we are handling our economy the way we should have. There is an opportunity for India in this crisis, but we have failed to capitalise on that. Those handling the economy for the government do not know the difference between demand and supply. If demand is low, as is the case today, more money should be put in people’s hands. For that, they should have cut the taxes, but they are raising the taxes. This is the time to encourage people to buy more.

Q. What you are saying makes so much sense. Why do you think the government blocks this idea?

A. Because they feel they get power out of income tax. People come running to them. That’s all.

Q. And does it bother you that your expertise on the economy is not being utilised by the government?

A. I have been brought up as a true Hindu who believes in what Lord Krishna says in the Bhagavad Gita — that we only have the freedom of action but no right to the fruits of those actions. That is decided by the Lord himself. I am happy and grateful about so many things in my life, so this one I can ignore and move on (laughs).

Look, I am a believer. Who knows what’s there in store for me? When Chandrashekhar became the Prime Minister, I didn’t know I would become a senior-most minister in his Cabinet. I dismissed the DMK government, introduced big economic changes. It was all so sudden and surprising but it all happened. I am digressing from our discussion, but I am telling you that the Chandrashekhar government took some of the most momentous decisions during its short regime. And what happened to poor PV Narasimha Rao? I also had a minister rank in his Cabinet. He doesn’t even have a memorial in the national Capital.

Author: I think Narasimha Rao is one of the best Prime Ministers.

Swamy: I would say he is the best.

Q. You have worked with Rao, what made him such a successful Prime Minister, despite so many constraints he had in running the government?

A. If Rao was told that someone was unhappy, he would reach out to that person and talk to him personally. Also, he never took any action without thorough consultations with his Cabinet. And then he had experts at his disposal. He had Montek Singh Ahluwalia. Of course, he got Manmohan Singh as Finance Minister. He was not scared of experts and never bothered about being overshadowed. I think this explains why he could achieve so much.

Q. There’s a never-ending debate about who the real architect of India’s liberalisation was: Was it Narasimha Rao or Manmohan Singh?

A. It is wrong to give this credit to Manmohan Singh. Why didn’t he do so when he was Prime Minister? Manmohan Singh did what he could in the early 1990s because Narasimha Rao backed him. He provided political protection to Manmohan Singh.

Q. It is said that you have ‘files’ on every important person. What do you have to say about that?

A. As far as files are concerned, I don’t need them now. I have computers; I keep them on computers now (laughs).

Q. So, the theory that you keep files on people is correct. Right?

A. I don’t snoop around or go hunting for files. Given my track record, people reach out and give me files. Most of the time I reject those files. On prominent politicians, however, whatever comes to me, I keep. In the case of the National Herald, one of their own people reached out to me, saying his conscience didn’t allow him to die with this guilt. He gave me the entire file. This is India. Here, you can frighten people into silence but you can’t buy their conscience.

Q. One, two, three, four… While talking to you I see four books on Veer Savarkar in this room. I am, therefore, tempted to ask: How do you see him?

A. The major work for which Savarkar deserves all the international awards is his book on 1857. On other things his views fluctuated over the decades: First, he said that Hindutva was only for people with Hindu blood; later, he diluted this viewpoint. My regard for him is primarily for his book on 1857, which he called India’s first war of independence. And I don’t believe all this nonsense that he was involved in Mahatma Gandhi’s assassination.

Author: Absolutely! Even Dr BR Ambedkar, who was then India’s Law Minister, had told Savarkar’s lawyer that the top leadership in the Nehru government wanted him to be framed in the assassination case, but he was sure Savarkar would come out of it unscathed…

Swamy: I have done a lot of research on Gandhi’s assassination. I don’t think the time is right for me to file a case on that. But this much is certain that the pistol with which Gandhi was killed was never found. Nathuram Godse said he fired two bullets, the public prosecutor said he fired three, and the Hindu newspaper and The New York Times reported quoting eyewitness accounts that four bullets were fired. How many bullets were found in Gandhi’s body? The person who saw this closest, Abha and Manu, on whose shoulders Gandhi was walking, wasn’t even called for interrogation in the court.

My assumption is that the bullet that pierced Gandhi’s heart was a shot by a sharpshooter — and I strongly believe that the real killer was Mountbatten’s sharpshooter — while Godse would have shot him in his stomach, arms. What heightens my suspicion is that Gandhi wasn’t taken to a hospital immediately after the shooting. The police were there but they didn’t register an FIR. In fact, strangely, the FIR was filed by the owner of the Marina Hotel, where Godse had stayed.

What’s even more farcical was that Godse was not immediately arrested. Morarji Desai wrote to Jawaharlal Nehru saying Godse had returned to Bombay (now Mumbai) and whether he should be arrested. Nehru said no. Godse came back to Bombay after the assassination via aircraft. From where did he get the money to travel via plane?

Q. One last question, you are 83 years old now. What keeps you so fit and energetic to keep fighting and fighting?

A. This is all there in our epics and scriptures. According to them, one ages fast because of the fear of the future, the apprehension about what is there in store for him. People would ask me what would happen if Modi won’t give me a second term in the Rajya Sabha. But then, this had happened to me in the past — during the Vajpayee era or even during the Emergency when Mrs Indira Gandhi got me expelled from the Parliament.

Stress comes from expectations. I just went to Apollo for my annual medical examination and doctors were surprised to see that all my parameters were working normally. Also, I regularly do Yoga and Pranayam. Pranayam is extremely important. As I said before, quoting the Bhagavad Gita, I am only entitled to work, whose results are not in my hands. It’s in God’s hands, so why should I worry? I sleep very well.

Utpal Kumar is Opinion Editor, Firstpost and News18. He tweets from @Utpal_Kumar1. Views expressed are personal.

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